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Almost perfect!

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 5 / 7
Date: March 11, 2006
Author: Amazon User

This game is not perfect. You just can't expect that out of a game. After all, the creators are merely mimicing a real driving experience. But they've come pretty darn close.

I have to start off by saying that the most important factor in this game is it's use of the Xbox remote's progressive, pressure sensitive buttons. Unlike PS2, the triggers are easy to modulate much like a real accelerator and brake pedal. You just cannot achieve that that level of feel with the PS2's imprecise trigger buttons.

Also, Forza's physics make driving at the limits, really driving at the limits. You can sense when the car is losing traction or biting into the tarmac. While going through a long, swoopy bend, you can modulate the vehicle's traction with the steering as well as with the accelerator. And if you get a little too happy with the trigger, the tail will start to slip out.. but it's controllable. You can actually feel that slippage and you can manipulate your controls accordingly. It's not an arcade game where you stick like glue or if you lose the rear you just drift through the corner like a pro. I feel a sense of accomplishment with every successful turn.

Braking in this game is nothing like I've ever seen in a video game. You can't just mash on the brakes to scrub off speed. Much like in real driving, you need to be steady on the brakes and gradually apply pressure. Too much force and you'll lock it all up sending you into a wall or off into the gravel. Too quickly, too soon, on an off camber corner and you'll lose your rear and cause the car to go sideways. Although it is correctable ofcourse.

The acceleration needs just as much care and attention. Ever accelerate out of a corner real hard on a fwd? You start spinning your inside tire. Same thing happens here. Full throttle right off the brakes and you spin the tires. Much like the rest of the controls, you have to be smooth to be fast.

What I noticed first was since the physics are pretty realistic but there's no visible grittyness in the screen as you go faster, it's hard to tell how fast you're really going. Because in GT4 whenever you hit the brakes, you immediately scrub off speed. But in reality, at those speeds, it would infact take quite a bit of time to come to an entry speed and that's where Forza got it right. The sense of speed eventually came to me though.

But even after hours of play and the realistic physics, I still felt detached from the car. So now that I'm familiar with a lot of the tracks and could focus more on the car, I realized that when I'm going through a corner, the stability management system cuts in when I actually need the power to smoothly negotiate a corner. So I turned it off and immediately felt more in control of the vehicle. Then I turned off the traction control and it felt as if I was playing a completely different game. The controls just came to life. I had to modulated the brakes and accelerator more than ever before to keep the car from losing it and it was absolutely great! I never felt so in control of a video game before. Forza is truly the most realistic car simulator ever made.

And personally, what I love most about this game is being able to drive my dream car, the Enzo Ferrari. I misplaced my PS2 for months and was dying without my GT4. I never even thought about getting a racing game for the Xbox. I'm so glad that someone told be about Forza. It drives better than GT4.

Gran Turis-who?

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 5 / 7
Date: July 30, 2006
Author: Amazon User

Forza Motorsport is as much about style as it is about speed. Buy a car, tweak it with numerous upgrades and choose your paint colour for the main body of the car, the hood and the mirrors. Tint the windows, change the rims, apply a million decals to the vehicle and take it to the track. No, you can't fit neons and no, you can't change the colour of your exhaust, but you don't need to. Resizing the decals and vinyls, colouring them, spinning them and moving them to the desired location can result in some incredibly intricate designs - and the chances are that when you take it online, you won't see a modified car like yours.

But, that doesn't win races. Upgrading your engine, suspension, turbocharger, intercooler, bodywork and a whole host of other parts is what's required to do that. Along with a bit of tuning to the camber, tyre pressure, suspension stiffness and more. If you obtain a car that allows it, you can even swap out the entire engine for a better one to improve performance.

The results of these changes can be viewed instantly, using Forza's "out of ten" system. Your car is given a score for acceleration; cornering, braking, top speed and rarity, with these updating instantly should you choose to buy a new part. Installing more custom parts increases the car's rarity, which in turn increases its value when you come to sell it back to the CPU, or if you take it online and flog it to another human player. The whole system is incredibly easy to use, and is as in-depth as you wish to make it. Cars don't have to be tuned, but if you want to squeeze an extra couple of miles an hour out of the engine and a little more grip on the corners from the tyres, then you can tweak all of the settings to get the car feeling just right. Paint and decals don't have to be applied, but having your own personal car when racing online - and knowing that nobody else has one that looks exactly like it - is a very cool feeling.

The gameplay - thankfully - matches up. The game does move at a solid 30fps - which many have criticised - but you'll rarely notice it. Had the developers chosen to cram so much graphical flair into a game running at 60fps, we might be mentioning slowdown here, but we aren't. The game whips along at a stunning rate, and you won't notice the framerate at all. You'll be too busy trying to slice an extra split second off your lap time by riding an apex a little more than you should, or blocking off one of the fighting CPU AI drivers to stop them passing you, or brutally knocking you spinning on a corner. Make them mad and they'll begin nudging, pushing and taking more risks - just like you would. If you're bored of racing but still want to proceed through the game's offline structure, train a "Drivatar" and make them race for you - a bit like the B-Spec option of GT4. In this mode, you're rated on how well you take different types of corners, and this is then applied to your Drivatar. If you drive badly, he'll drive badly - simple as that.

Playing in the game's career mode is also as customisable as you want it to be. If you're having trouble timing your turns, pop the "Suggested Line" option on and watch as it tells you where to brake, where to cruise and where to put your foot down - dynamically - meaning that the line changes to reflect your current speed. This, along with the optional traction control, stability control, damage type and opposition difficulty is all changeable. The penalty for setting these all to the easiest option is that you won't earn as much money for winning a race, with the opposite happening if you set them to the most difficult levels.

Online, Forza Motorsport uses a modified Chess ranking system to grade players and find the best opposition for your race. The game slides along at breakneck speed and rarely suffers from lag or slowdown. PGR2 has also been unseated here.

I know I'm not doing the game justice here, because there are simply so many things to talk about, that its impossible to get it all in without running over thirty thousand words.

I haven't touched on many of the game's features, but they are best left for you to find. All you need to know is that if it was a poker hand, Forza would be a royal flush. If a football score, it would be a 7-0 win. As a game, it is the finest straight-up racing game to grace any home console system and as such, is an absolute must buy. I don't often say that a game has no flaws, but I certainly can't see any in Forza Motorsport.

Gran Turismo, honey, I think we should see other racing games

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 4 / 5
Date: January 11, 2006
Author: Amazon User

I've been a fan of the Gran Turismo series for a little while now, and I've had a lot of fun with it. However, Forza Motorsport has shown me the light. While Gran Turismo 4 has many strong points, it falls short of Forza in a number of key areas and can't hold on to the crown of King of Racing Games. If you're impatient, jump to my summary items at the end of this review. :-)

First off, a very important element: how easy is it to jump into the game? Forza is amazingly accessible right out of the gate. You have a number of options for driving aids and difficulty, with a corresponding change in how much you can win for each race. The "suggested line" option shows you where to drive on the track, and what speed to go. The suggested line takes into account your current speed AND the capabilities of your car - it's not some static representation of what the "ideal" car should do, it's an amazingly helpful tool for finding out where YOUR car should be and how fast it should be going. Phenomenal, especially if you're not used to remotely realistic racing sims.

Speaking of realism, how do the cars handle? Forza does an amazing job of modeling the various cars, and they all genuinely feel unique. One major problem I have with the Gran Turismo games is that most stock cars feel like you're driving the friggin' Titanic, and the only way to make them even remotely viable for racing is to hobble along through tedious races to get lots of dough and upgrade them like crazy. And once you've upgraded your car to a certain point, it basically drives like every other car in the game. In Forza, you can actually race in low level races with stock cars (go figure!) and different cars have very noticeable differences in how they drive, with and without various upgrades.

Another important element in Forza is damage modeling. The game is light years ahead of Gran Turismo in this regard, since the GT series essentially has NO damage modeling. In Forza, if you bounce your car off a guardrail, you're going to damage it and two things will happen - first, your car will handle differently, and second, the cost of repairs is deducted from your winnings. I've found that damage can have a profound effect on your driving in Forza. Bang the left side of the car up against the aforementioned guardrail and your car might end up with issues of the "dang thing keeps pulling to the side" variety. There's definite incentive NOT to bang up your ride.

The final aspect I want to talk about is the overall feel of the game. As if Forza didn't smack Gran Turismo around in all the previously mentioned areas, this is where the real deal breaker is. Forza absolutely trounces Gran Turismo for subjective feel in my opinion. While the environments may not be quite as crisp as those in GT4, they have a much more "lived in" feel. Your car reacts to the road in a much more realistic fashion, rocking as you go through bumpy banking turns, etc. Forza also offers a much better sense of location - particularly in the "point to point" races. I just got through driving one of the "hill climb" tracks, and it's amazing! You really get the feel of driving up a winding road, your engine straining against the pull of gravity, your brakes squealing as you whip around switchback turns and climb ever higher.

All right, enough blathering - and I haven't even touched on other stuff, like the "drivatar" AI that you can train to drive races for you (actually pretty handy, and a good way to hone your own skills). Here's the breakdown:

THE GOOD
- Great graphics. Not always as sharp as GT, but generally more complete feeling and offering more depth to where you drive.
- Nice soundtrack, including in-game controls for changing tracks and volume without having to pause the race.
- Fantastic modeling of the cars, with each one having a distinct feel regardless of how much or how little you upgrade it.
- Great variety of tracks. Very few of them are annoying to race on.
- Much less tedious "money treadmill" than in Gran Turismo - it doesn't feel like such a chore to progress through and win cars/cash. Prizes come a lot quicker, and cars are a LOT more capable off the bat.
- Damage modeling, and it actually adds something to the game!
- You don't need super-sticky racing tires to keep your car on the track (I'm looking at you, GT!) and even if you have them, they don't shred after just 2 laps (again, looking at you, GT!)
- The "suggested line" feature is downright awesome even for experienced players.
- Computer AI that not only doesn't suck, but actually acknowledges your presence on the track rather than riding around on rails and ramming into you! Go figure!

THE BAD
- Graphics engine sometimes blurs even close up objects (mostly during weird camera angles on replays) for some odd reason.
- Not as many cars as Gran Turismo, if you actually care - there's still tons to play with.

THE UGLY
- Can't think of a single thing. Even coming up with stuff for "THE BAD" was a stretch.

THE SUMMARY
Buy this game. Buy it now. I don't care if you like racing games or not, you will find something here that will hook you and have you driving up and down snow-covered mountains in your wicked tricked out racer.

Move over Gran Turismo

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 7 / 13
Date: May 04, 2005
Author: Amazon User

GT4 is dead, there is a new king in town and its Forza. This game smokes GT4. Better graphics, better AI, better money/reward system. I bought GT4 on opening day and have played it maybe 6 hours total. Just since buying forza, I have probably played it more then that. You can google search it if you want screen caps or full reviews, but if you want the best racing simulator, go and get forza. it even has autocross tracks.

Great game, even when aged a couple of years

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 3 / 3
Date: May 08, 2007
Author: Amazon User

I bought this game the day it was released for the Xbox, and I loved it. At some point, I got rid of my Xbox and all of my games and moved along to the Xbox 360. Now that I have the 360, I bought Forza again. This time, I got it for only $8, the best deal I've ever received on a videogame. I have owned just about every racing sim out there for consoles (every game in the Gran Turismo series, every Project Gotham Racing game, TOCA Driver, etc.). After playing all of these games, the first Forza still stands out as my favorite.

The graphics are good, not great. When under shade, the cars look kind of dull without much texture. However, when under light, the cars look great. The environments of the courses are really great, especially for an Xbox title. After owning Project Gotham Racing 3 for the Xbox 360, I am pleased with the graphics of Forza. PGR3 wasn't the most impressive looking game on the 360, and Forza isn't far behind. Remember, this is a title that was launched a couple of years ago on the original Xbox.

Graphics rating (out of 10): 7

The audio in the game is great, as far as car sounds are concerned. The music is not good, just like most driving games. The music consists of more techno-pop music that does nothing to increase enjoyability of the experience. In fact, I turn the music off completely. The car sounds, however, sound great. A Corvette sounds exactly as it does in real life, and a Mustang sounds exactly as it does in real life. Every car has its own individual sound, and they're all great. Plus, the sounds will change depending on what upgrades you make to the cars. If you place a larger engine into a car, or replace the exhaust with a new system, you'll know it.

Audio rating (out of 10): 8

The controls are great, the best of any racing game I've played. Each car has its own feel. The Enzo grips the road tightly as you speed around a corner at 120 mph, and a '70 Camaro slips all over the place when trying to make the same turn at 120 mph. Watch for understeer and oversteer too, they are present. The difference between a GTR car and a D class car is drastic. There's not much more to say other than Forza has the best controls of any driving game I've ever played.

Control rating (out of 10): 10

Fun factor is the most important aspect of any game. If a game isn't fun, you won't play it. Forza is for a specialized group of race fans. If you prefer the arcade style that the Need for Speed series delivers, you won't like Forza. Forza is a pure sim, that is extremely fun. The choices of customization are great. You can customize just about any part of your car from bumpers, to spoilers, to paint color, to window tint, to decals, to engine, to intercooler, etc. If the car has a part, you can most likely customize it. Don't forget the fact that there is car damage in this game. That's one aspect that I love over the Gran Turismo series. In Gran Turismo, you can slam into an opponent at 200 mph and bounce right off into a sharp turn. You can't do that in Forza. Not only is there damage in the appearance of your car, but the damage affects how your car handles. If your front bumper is hanging off of one side, your car will pull to that side. Also, there is tire wear, suspension damage, engine damage, and a few others. This isn't Burnout by any means, but the damage is realistic enough to make a difference in how you drive. Excellent fun factor with this game. After playing next-gen racing games, I still prefer this one over any of them.

Fun factor rating (out of 10): 10

I bought this game to hold me over until the new Forza for the 360 is released on May 29. I am happy that I once again made the decision to purchase it. This experience will definitely hold me over until the new one comes out.

Overall score (out of 10): 9

I have seen the top of the mountain...

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 3 / 3
Date: May 06, 2005
Author: Amazon User

This is the best racing game ever. I have relished each and every Gran Turismo and loved the NASCAR games. I've torn it up in the World of Outlaws, and raced online in Project Gotham 2, and this is the first game in quite a while that has taken it to the next level. The physics are much better than anything else in the genre, the graphics are spot on, and the game has a ton of depth. I haven't been this absorbed by a racing game since the early to mid years of Gran Turismo.

Some of the coolest features: Being able to trick out your ride any way you want: paint, decals, parts etc.

You can race online and build a career there.

You can adjust your car on the fly in the test mode (a real time-saver).

The competition is tougher, and the difficulty is however you want it. If you beat everything on the solo game and are feeling like the next Jeff Gordon, then take your game online and see how wrong you are! Nothing is a substitute for human competition!

Your car can take on damage if you want, and it affects the performance of the car.

Gran Turismo has ruled the roost, with good reason, for years and years. GT has given me alot of good times, and deserves our respect, but it has finally been unseated.

If you love racing games, you can not go wrong buying this game.

Better than Turismo? Maybe so.

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 4 / 6
Date: March 01, 2006
Author: Amazon User

The comparisons between Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo (for PS2) are inevitable, and for good reason. Sim racing fans have long praised the Turismo series for delivering something that most racing games seem to lack- a true "Career" mode where you buy cars from scratch, upgrade them like real autos, and customize their handling with real-world touches. Not to mention the literally hundreds of hours of potential gameplay, depending on how you race your way through the events. So which game is better- Forza or Gran Turismo? (For this review, I'll be using GT4 for comparison.) To the uninitiated, both would be excellent choices. Both games have stellar graphics, incredible realism, and oodles of strategy. But- if you haven't figured out where this is going yet- Forza winds up being the winner by a long shot.

What Forza does better:
-Graphically, Forza's real-time rendering tops Turismo's use of actual photos or pre-rendered bits to create an illusion of better graphics. Even while actually rendering most everything you see, Forza's graphics remain as good or better than Turismo.
-Forza has a much easier learning curve thanks to its excellent helper tools. The "preferred line" feature appears on the track, turning from red to green in real-time to show you when you're going too fast to safely navigate a turn. Even veterans can use the line to help memorize the trickier parts of new tracks. Other features from the Anti-Lock Brakes system to the Traction Control can be toggled at the user's whim, and turning off these options will even increase your winnings in the Career mode. Yes, learning how to "drive right" actually pays off in this game. Customizing these options will keep the game fresh whether you're completely new to the genre or a long-time veteran.
-Forza doesn't have license tests. In Turismo, you have to pass supremely annoying and nearly senseless license tests to continue your Career. These often involve strict time limits coupled with cars that drive like the Titanic, if the Titanic had wheels made out of butter. In Forza, you acquire new events by having the right cars for a specific race (still necessary in Turismo) or by levelling up- which is accomplished by simply racing more to increase your earnings. Levelling up even comes with bonuses, like free cars and price reductions on parts.

What Turismo does better, and why Forza still shines:
-GT4 has many more cars spanning a wider range of interests. However, some of these cars aren't worth driving (a few Model-T era contraptions barely move at all) and a few aren't drivable at all (some cars have track or mode restrictions, meaning they literally can't be driven). Forza has enough cars to keep almost anyone happy, with a catalogue running back to the 60s, and including the big names like Ferrari. Only die-hard will really be seeking more.

I could go on:
Forza tops Turismo in pretty much any aspect imaginable. As an added bonus, the Xbox controller's triggers allow for much smoother acceleration and braking than the PS2's buttons. And I didn't even mention the amazing paint mechanic! You can customize your car's paint from a library of colors, and then apply up to 600 decals (on one car!) using a fully-featured shaping tool that, with practice, will allow you to do anything with your car's paint from replicating a real racer to drawing murals of 8-bit Nintendo characters (I've done both). And yes, your customized paint scheme shows up in all races. Turismo lacks damage modeling, while Forza lets you toggle it from "Off" to "Simulation", where hard hits will even warp your steering. Forza's computer cars seem to have much more competitive AI, with cars that actually try to avoid running you (or them) off the road if possible. The list goes on!

Bottom Line:
Forza might just be the best sim racing game ever made. The learning curve helpers allow anyone to jump in and try out the fun, while the depth of customization will please any sim fan. The library of tracks, modes, and cars will keep even die-hards happy. What more could you ask for? Forza 2, of course.

The Pinnacle in racing sims

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 3 / 4
Date: August 04, 2005
Author: Amazon User

I took some time before I wrote a review for Forza. I wanted to be sure my feelings about it were accurate and fair since, at first, I wasn't *massively* impressed with it. That's not to say it's not a stunning racing sim, but it's also not the huge leap in graphics/physics I was expecting due mainly to the MS hype machine.

Now I'm a big racing/driving game fan. I've got all the essential Xbox racers, from PGR2 to Rallisport C2; from arcade type racers to true sims such as Forza. And I have to say I find the arcade side of the racing genre to simply be more fun. I therefore chopped a star off the 'fun rating' - not fair perhaps but accurate.

You probably already know about Forza - it's MS' attempt to de-throne GT3/4 as the ultimate racer. In a nutshell, if you're into racing sims MS would like you to drop the PS2 and buy an XBox. I therefore see lots of comparisons and the usual Forza vs GT4 debates. Personally, I don't know which is best as I haven't played GT since GT1 and have no intention of playing a 'sim' that has no crash damage. Which brings me to my first major complaint with Forza - the damage engine. It's not up to par... Sure the car models change as damage is incurred and the car will handle differently as it deteriorates but really it feels like an add-on. It's not the spectacular damage physics of Rallisport Challenge 2 and that's a shame. For a game with so much simulation the crashes feel like little more than decals stuck to the car. If you run into a wall at 220mph there would be little left of your vehicle but with Forza you might end up with some paint damage and a loose bumper. Objects that fall off your vehicle (few as there is) also don't affect other racers. Shame.

My other major complaint is the sound. It's weak and whilst the engine noises may be accurate they're too quiet. A revving 350bhp vehicle should be rattling things off the wall, but the bass is diluted and sounds from the other cars only kick in when they're on your tail.

I would also like to have seen different weather conditions and the ability to choose them.

Now don't get me wrong Forza is THE racing sim to own. But my points aren't there for the sake of nit-picking. These things really bothered me and reduced my enjoyment.

All in all Forza is amazing. The frame rate is soooo good and knocks PGR2's ~20 fps into a cocked hat. New York has NEVER looked so good in a game and every bump, corner and blade of grass has been recreated to perfection. I therefore have no hesitation in recommending Forza, despite my negative notes above. It's probably the last true race-sim for the XBox to come out before the 360 is released and it IS the best.

The Ultimate Racing Experience

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 3 / 4
Date: February 16, 2006
Author: Amazon User

Forza Motorsport truly defines what the words racing simulator mean. Everything about it seems to be modeled after their real-life counterparts; from the cars, to the tracks, to the physics, to the sounds, everything seems so real and full of life. Forza Motorsport offers you an experience that no other games in the genre can even compare.

Forza is truly amazing. Every single one of the over 230 cars to choose from is expertly designed to look, feel, and sound exactly like their real-life counterparts. The cars are so meticulously detailed that they look like they were scanned from real life pictures straight into the game. Each car's performance on the track is simulated to match performance specs direct from the manufacturer. But when you buy part upgrades for your car, vehicle performance is changed dramatically. Not only can you feel the difference upgrades make, you can hear the difference, too. This is what makes Forza one of the best racing simulators on the market. In order to fully enjoy Forza Motorsport, you MUST own a racing wheel. It's a necessity, and I personally recommend either the $100-$150 Fanatec Speedster 3 or the $50-$60 Logitech Nascar Racing Wheel.

What is a racing simulator without realistic car damage? Worthless. Most games show cosmetic car damage, but no game before has ever shown a realistic portrayal of performance car damage like Forza. The car damage simulator in Forza is revolutionary. Every scrape, every crash, every time you blaze up the tires, it all takes a toll on your car, and you'll have to pay for the damages. It simulates the damage not only cosmetically but on the car's performance itself. It will affect engine performace, transmission shifting time, fuel consumption, tire heat, everything imaginable is affected, making Forza the ultimate simulator.

Another one of the highlights of Forza is the way you can custom tune every aspect of your car in order to make it suitable for a particular race or track. Custom tuning includes tweaking your ride's tire pressure and even gear ratios. You can also buy part upgrades which range from the following: engine tuning, intake & exhaust systems, fuel ignition systems, turbo chargers, super chargers, transmissions, suspension, brakes, tires, weight reductions, even engine swaps from other cars. The list of available upgrades are amazing. Now for paint jobs. Forza allows you to trick out your ride with custom paint schemes, decals, and authentic aftermarket parts. I, personally, am not that talented with the paint system, but I have seen cars on Xbox Live that are utterly amazing with the amount of detail put into them.

The main features in the game are standard arcade racing, career mode, and of course Xbox Live, but the career mode being the highlight. Career mode will easily give you anywhere from 80-100 hours of racing. The career mode alone is worth the $50 admission, but now the price has been cut to a mere $20-$30, which is a bargain for a game with so much to do. The career mode is where you race through tournaments based on car class in order to raise money so that you can buy cars and upgrade parts.

Xbox Live is excellent for Forza. It is truly the ultimate car culture. The action is intense over Live with online multiplayer racing. You can do everything from trading and selling cars to creating custom car clubs. Xbox Live for Forza is so addicting you will find yourself playing non-stop just to battle your way up the real-time scoreboards.

Forza Motorsport and Gran Turismo 4 are both competitors for the title of the Ultimate Racing Simulator. But the fact is, Forza has some things that Gran Turismo doesn't have; and Gran Turismo has some things that Forza doesn't have. So it is hard to truly crown one as victorious over the other While both are excellent games, Forza definitely has the edge on GT4 because Forza is a much more polished game.

Forza Motorsport is revolutionary to the racing genre. It offers an experience that no other games can even compare to. Forza easily offers the best and most enjoyable racing simulation due to its real to life gameplay, graphics, and sound. Forza's value is off the charts because of the hours of time you will spend with it. With its real-to-life performance specs to its amazingly realistic car models and physics, Forza Motorsport is officially crowned as being the ULTIMATE RACING EXPERIENCE.

OH MY GOD!!

5 Rating: 5, Useful: 3 / 4
Date: May 05, 2005
Author: Amazon User

This game is (sic)! I bought it the day it came out and put it in and was amazed just by the opening movie... I'm a huge fan of the need for speed underground series, but this game makes those games look like they were made for the original nintendo... The customizing features kick a** unlike NFS you can put decals and vinals anywhere you want, re-shape them, tilt 'em, and rotate 'em. Theres over 200 cars, and tons of races!!! This a a definate buy!!!!!!!!

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